Teaching Textbooks vs. Singapore Math
YEARS LATER NOTE: Since using these programs, the kids described here graduated Magna Cum Laude in Statistics (Kelly) and Summa Cum Laude with Honors in Applied Mathematics (Christian) from a large state university. At the writing of this note (June 30, 2016), they are both midway through PhD programs at national research universities here in the United States. You can read more about that here.
Audrey asked why we switched from Singapore Math to Teaching Textbooks when we went from sixth grade. First, I have to give the standard homeschool caveat that this was our experience. Different students learn and think differently. In other words, “Mileage may vary.” We did not switch immediately. We absolutely loved Singapore math for the years we used it. We had tried Saxon and found it too repetitive and boring. I think it is a very good program, but it took some of the joy out of math for our kids. We found Singapore Math when Christian was in the third grade and Kelly was in the Fifth. It worked perfectly for us. There were a lot of reasons:
- It kept the kids moving along.
- It had fun stuff like mental math.
- It was repetitive enough that the kids repeated the material enough to learn it without getting bored.
- It had a great history of success in Singapore and with homeschoolers we have known.
We went through the sixth grade with Kelly, then started the seventh grade with Singapore Math, too. It seemed like I had to spend a lot more time explaining things when we got to the seventh grade than we did in the sixth. Kelly got bored and frustrated. She began to get a distaste for math. It might well have been because we used the system wrongly. It seemed like not everything was available for the kids to really understand math at this level with the materials that were provided. I got the sense that this material would have played a lot better with a stand-up teacher than for a typical homeschool learning environment.
We had heard from other homeschoolers that Teaching Textbooks was good. I read some reviews on Teaching Textbooks. Most, but not all of them were good. We decided to try it, so I bought the Pre-Algebra material. We loved it. Kelly was fired up about math again. The program required less work on my part for correction and administration at the same time I felt I could better track whether or not she grasped the material. Here are the reasons the system worked for us:
- Each day’s material is covered redundantly in the textbook and with a lecture on a “chalkboard” via computer disk. Sometimes when one of the kids does not really understand a given subject, I can ask them whether they read the textbook or listened to the lecture. Most of the time, if they just revisit the material in the other method, that will be sufficient for them to get the understanding the need to complete the problems successfully.
- There seems to be just the amount of repetitiveness that my kids require to “own” the material. Subject matter taught in previous lessons appears in subsequent lesson problem sets for several weeks. The way the problem sets are arranged to reinforce understanding over time is one of the great strengths of this program.
- There is a set of five practice problems that go with each lesson. The student is asked to do those problems on the completion of the lecture (or reading). If the student cannot answer the practice problems correctly, it shows he needs to go back and listen to the lecture or reread the material before tackling the full daily 20-24 problem homework assignment.
- The answers to all the problems are worked in minute detail using the effective lecture/chalkboard system on the computer disk. The answers are very, very clearly explained. One of the problems with some other systems is the lack of specificity in the explanation of how to perform the homework problems. This is another great strength of Teaching Textbooks.
- The material is broken up into 12-15 units. There is a test after each unit. This helps the parent keep track of how the student performs throughout the year.
There are a couple of items about which parents should take note. First, it has been very important and helpful that I correct all the math problems for the student every night. Second, on some of the boards, a concern was expressed that the material is covered in a different order in Teaching Textbooks than in other programs. That includes both the fact that Algebra II comes before Geometry and several of the smaller subject areas are covered during different specific years for some programs than for other programs. An example of that might be that some programs introduce the sine and cosine laws in Geometry and others introduce it in Pre-Calculus. This was not a problem with us because we planned to use the Teaching Textbooks program all the way through to Pre-Calculus.
I hope that helps!
Links:
Wow, thanks for the info, I’m honored. We’ll keep it in mind for sure as we continue on. We are sure enjoying Singapore now; we are in 4b (the older 2) and 2b (the younger daughter.)
On a different front, we had a newspaper reporter and photographer with us today observing our “class” for a special report about homeschooling in a future edition of our local paper. It’s exciting/scary (both) for the kids to have this happen!
WoW! That is so exciting Audrey!
We would like to see the article if you could send it to us or if there is a link on the web. We would love to see it!
Lorena
Hey, Audrey. You are a great writer. Why don’t you write up a good article on what happened while he was there. I will post it here. Then, when the article comes out, you can do a post mortem explaining how right or wrong he got it or something about how the views of the reporter coincide or depart from the reality of your life. I think that would be awesome. I also think a lot of people would love to hear about it! Two articles reporting on the reporter reporting on homeschool.
Ken, thank you so much for explaining why you switched. I’m glad that Audrey asked. 🙂
In many points you mentioned, Teaching Textbooks sounds like Saxon, though I’m sure it looks different in real life. I like that Saxon has mental math, and I love that Saxon has in fine print beside each problem in the problem set where the material *should* have been covered. Sometimes someone just blanks on a hard problem and it’s nice to go back and look at the lesson again.
Also, the DIVE CDs have made Saxon much easier for us here. We get a visual too. My problem is keeping everything graded! I know we all know how that is. 🙂
Lynn
Your welcome, Lynn. When we first started homeschooling we had a little bit of a struggle choosing materials. Part of the problem was that people often had wildly conflicting advise to give about which curricula to use. We soon figured out that whether a program is good or not depends as much on how a particular kid learns as it does on the program itself. It is hard, when people make unequivocal statements (good or bad) about some program to decide whether that program is going to work for your child or not. It took us awhile to figure out that the best advise we can give is just an explanation of what we tried, why or why not we liked it, and a little bit about how the program worked in our particular situation with our particular kid’s learning style. You seem to do that very well in your web writings.
Amen to the comment on keeping everything graded. Now that our kids are older, the work faster and generate a whole lot more material to be graded every night. At the same time, they learn a lot more stuff on their own than when they were younger. So now I am slowly changing from spending most of my time teaching to most of my time grading.
I am a little late joining the TT discussion. We started using TT when Emma finished Algebra 1, and I found out the hard way that Jacob’s Geometry was way too teacher intensive for me. TT Geometry fit the bill wonderfully. I have never, after the first few months of using TT with Emma, had to intervene AT ALL! Emma listens to the lecture, does the 5 or so practice problems with the “teacher”, finishes up all the lesson’s problems, self-corrects and marks missed answers, then reworks the ones she has missed, if any, then corrects again and, if still wrong, takes out the very handy and thorough Solutions CD and reviews the problem as the teacher fully explains and works through each step of the problem. Emma has completed Geometry, Algebra ll and is almost through Pre-Cal. The Pre-Cal has been a challenge only because she has had to read through the longer lessons of this level by herself as TT has yet to complete the lecture on CD, but I believe this challenge has served her well.
Emma did not follow the TT Scope and Sequence of Alg l, Alg ll, Geometry, then Pre-Cal because I did not know any better at the time, and just followed the “regular” sequence of the public schools (Geometry between Alg l and ll). This has not hampered her and she scored quite respectably on all of her state tests each year as well as on the SAT and ACT tests. This has proven to me that a student can do very well using this program independently if self motivated and honest about their work.
Unlike other Algebra ll texts, TT does not cover Exponential and Logrithmic Functions until Pre-Cal, but as was pointed out before, it doesn’t really matter as long as you are aware of the Scope and Sequence difference and stay with the program so that it is all covered in the long run.
I have followed the TT sequence with Mattisse – she went into Alg ll directly after Alg 1-because I started using TT with her after Saxon Math 8/7 (pre-algebra).
I highly recommend that the students complete the additional topics at the end of the each text before moving forward. We recommend TT Pre-Algebra – Pre-Cal wholeheartedly.
I liked TT so much that I have been their sales representative for them at our local homeschool conference for the past several years. My girls help to ‘man’ the booth and do a bang-up job explaining the program to the interested or just curious homeschoolers that stroll by. Many times the curious will purchase after my girls sit with them at a computer and show them the program.
Truthfully, though, I am not as personally familiar with the lower levels (the newer 5-7 levels) as none of my kids have used them and these levels are used differenly from the Pre-Algebra through Pre-Cal levels (enter answers on the computer, the computer corrects each answer immediately and lets the student know if they got it right or not, then asks if they want to try again or if they want to see the solution worked out). We have, however heard that homeschoolers like it. I would definitely put them through the assessments online to make sure you have chosen the correct level for your child – don’t go by grade level, especially in the lower levels. The website will let you work through several lessons in each level so you can check out the differences between the lower levels vs. Pre-Algebra and up.
That being said, we are firm believers in the lower Saxon levels 5/4 up through 8/7 (we used Math Made Meaningful for K-3rd grade – very kinesthetic and hand-on). We like the rigor of Saxon, the repetitiveness, the facts practice, and for the other reasons that Lynn mentioned. I know that for some children it is VERY tedious and too long to complete all of it, so some parents opt to have their children just do 1/2 of the mixed practice problems. I have even have had one child take 2 days for each lesson if it takes them too long to finish the lessons. Just tailor the Saxon program to each child.
Although we like the Saxon program, I never planned on going higher than 8/7 with them because I couldn’t reason mixing Algebra with Geometry. Following Saxon 8/7 with TT Algebra l was glitch free for us, and we haven’t turned back.
That was AWESOME Ruthie. We very much appreciate your very thorough treatment of this material. This was in many ways more substantive than what I wrote on all this, right on point, and a great addition to the subject because of your experience with Saxon. We had done a little of Saxon, but obviously not as much as you. I had heard (and believe) that, in terms of rigor and thoroughness, Saxon is the very best. I had never heard of Math Made Meaningful although it sounds like it would have been a huge help in our household if we would have known about it
Looking to purchase used teaching textbook math grade 6
Eileen. Thanks for the note. We would love to be able to help you out, but we have already given away all the Teaching Textbooks we have finished to families that do not have a lot of resources, but still want to homeschool. Maybe someone else who has the books will see this an post a note here.
(New to your blog… sent here via link by Luke Holzmann.) I am considering TT for my son who will be in 7th in the fall, and especially appreciate your review, as we are transitioning from Singapore, as well.
Ruthie- Your ONE post was the clarification I needed to go the next step.
I just today(!) tested my Children for Saxon HS placement, and Math 6/5 it is! I am really intrigued by Singapore, but now see WHERE it is best suited- in the younger grades. My kids need knowledge of the rules, to then stand on that BASE, in order to go forward. We used Ray’s at the beginning, and their ‘story problems’ REALLY make one think, and I still have that up through Intellectual, so I KNOW I can fill in at the ‘conceptual’ level anytime I need/have to, but it was the spiral concept, the repetition (sort of like Catechism responses, and memorizing Bible verses) that this age range excels in, and what they NEED, before Algebra and Geometry!
Bless you for your cogent analysis, it was almost exactly iterated on another URL. I now know how to proceed for next year. Saxon and Dive – plus it’s on sale this month, over at RR!
That is great Fr. John. I think your post clarified some stuff for me, too. That is, Singapore Math is great for when the kids are in the “grammar” stage of the classical education trivium. We moved on to Teaching Textbooks (we considered going back to Saxon, too) right about when they were moving from the grammar stage to the “logic” stage. After reading your post, I read back at Ruthie’s. She indeed makes that clear. Thanks for your post.
Bypasser
Hi, I’m from Singapore and our Primary (Grade 1 – 6) books were very well received in US. 🙂 It’s not surprising that from Grade 7 onwards your child finds it a little different and that is coz they are written by different authors! 😛 Hee…
Hi, I am doing a research of adding a helpful math curriculum for my boys. We have used Singapore Math until now, my older boy will start on 6A and 6B this fall, but I noticed at the end of 5B he didn’t enjoy it any more and would try to run away from doing math. Recently a homeschool mom was selling her TT and that’s my first time ever hearing about it. I went into TT’s website and tried their sample lessons, I just love it, it’s simple and step by step clearly explained to us, I know my son would enjoy it, but I can’t decide which level to get. I tried the sample lessons and noticed plentiful of repetitions, but I looked at TT 6 seemed to be teaching at about Singapore math 5A’s and 5B’s pace. I can’t be sure, since it’s quite a spending for me and I still want to continue with my Sing. Math 6th grade and only use TT to strengthen their foundation,can anybody suggest me whether a TT 6 or TT 7 would be sufficient? Another question is if I didn’t buy the textbook, just theCD Roms, would that be enough or is the textbook containing more practice work besides the CR-Roms? I am thinking of switching over to another math curriculum possibility TT after I finish Sing. math 6 grade and don’t know if a TT 7 or whatever that comes after the TT 7 is suitable.
can someone shine some light to help me? Thank you.
blessings,
Audrey
Hello Audrey, Thanks for your very thorough questions. We did precisely what you plan to do all the way through Singapore Math 6A and 6B. From there, we tried the subsequent Singapore Math material for two or three weeks and were so disappointed that we switched to Teaching Textbooks. We used neither TT 6 nor TT 7, but went directly to TT Pre-algebra and did just fine. I imagine that TT 6 and/or 7 would work just fine as either a replacement or as an accompaniment to Singapore Math 6A and 6B. That being said, we really enjoyed Singapore Math through 6A and 6B. We still believe the material after 6A and 6B was not very good–maybe it was just us–so the change in approach and material in Teaching Textbooks truly reinvigorated us. That was true for TT Pre-algebra, Algebra I, Algebra II, and Geometry, but TT fell off a cliff when we got to Pre-calculus. I know they have a new pre-calculus plan, but we had such a good experience with Thinkwell Pre-calculus and Calculus we recommend that rather than TT. I hope that helps. Both our kids are now sophomore math majors in college. These materials prepared them well. If you would like further clarification from what we know, please do not hesitate to ask.
Thanks for the info about your math choices. I have a 2nd grade son and I am teaching him math while my wife does the other subjects. Last year we did Singapore 1A and 1B, this year we’re on 2A and 2B. We love Singapore! However, I have to do this on my lunch break, and soon my daughter will be old enough so that I’ll have 2 kids to teach math to. In other words, we’re facing a time crunch, which makes me think about switching to Teaching Textbooks. I am saddened by this because it seems that TT is at a lower level than Singapore, and I hate to sacrifice the kids’ education because I just ran out of time. Even though it’s a few years off, I am fired up about Thinkwell math. It seems like the best of both worlds–a great quality of math instruction, but not a lot of teaching or time required of me. So if I can just make it to 6th grade I am hoping we’ll be fine.
So I was interested to see that you have used all 3 of the programs I am interested in: Singapore, TT, and Thinkwell. Question: Do you think TT would be good enough to bridge the gap between 3rd and 6th grade for my son? I don’t want him to get to Thinkwell and be way behind or without a solid foundation.
Also, how did you handle any problems with the upper level Thinkwell classes your kids took? If they couldn’t figure a problem out, was there anywhere to go for help? My understanding is that, unlike TT, there is not an explanation for every problem.
Thanks for any advice!
David
Thanks for the great set of questions. I commend you for taking a hand in the education of your children and taking it very seriously. I do not think I have any special knowledge about any of this with the exception, possibly, of the experience we had with our own kids. I will tell you a little of how we did it and that might help a little.
I started teaching our kids when my son was in the 3rd grade and my daughter was in the 5th grade. I worked full time and taught the kids by myself. My wife is/was a stay at home mom who kept very busy making meals, running the kids to the library, sports, music, etc. I made a week long schedule for each kid on the weekends–that took about two hours. Each evening after work, I would correct all the work the kids accomplished that day, read aloud with the kids, do their flash cards, and work with them on whatever they needed, then adjust their schedules to match what we had accomplished that day. That took me, typically, about three hours per night.
By the half way through the third grade, the only thing required for Singapore Math was that I correct the homework, do the mental math, and lay stuff out. Every now and then, our kids would get stuck and I would have to work them through a sticky concept. It took me just as much time to do the TT (but I did it at a higher level than where you want to start). The teaching was different, but the time commitment was a wash. When we got to Thinkwell, I only checked in once a week to see how the kids were doing.
When my kids were your kids’ ages, it was quite a bit more hands on because of the required memorization and learning of completely new concepts, but not intractable. I wish I knew more than I do about the early years of TT, but I just do not as we started those books in the equivalent of the seventh grade. We did not want to do anything else but Singapore because we loved it so much. I cannot recommend their system enough at that the K-6 level.
The way we did it not may not be the absolute best, but it worked well for us. I do not think we are a wildly intelligent, but this math program served us well. Our 16 year old son will start as a Junior in Applied Math and our 17 year old daughter will start as a Senior in Statistics (although, because of the sequences it will take her two years to graduate), both at a large state university.
I hope that helps. If there is any other way we can be a help, please do not hesitate to ask.
I missed part of the question from David here. He asks:
It is now four years later, but I thought this still deserved a thoughtful answer so I wrote the following post to give our thoughts on the subject:
Math Help: What to do when Thinkwell and Teaching Textbooks explanations are not enough
Anonymous
VERY encouragaing. We are planning to switch for the same reasons!!
Good luck, Anon. Let us know how it goes.
So glad to have found this information! We also used and enjoyed Singapore Math through 6b. I continued using it with my son in 7th and 8th grade (first New Elementary Math, then Dimensions) but neither of us enjoyed it. I’ve decided to switch to TT now that my daughter has reached the end of 6b and am trying to decide between 7 and pre-algebra. It seems that she’s ready for pre-algebra but I’m worried that she’ll have gaps if we skip straight to 7. Anyway, thanks so much for posting this information. It reaffirms my choice to abandon Singapore Math and move onto something better!
You are so welcome Melissa! It sounds like you are on a great path. If there is any way I can be of help going forward, please do not hesitate to ask. We went through a second transition from Teaching Textbooks to Thinkwell Math when the kids got to Precalculus for precisely these same reasons.
Haha, well now I’ve ventured down the Thinkwell hole and can’t decide between the two (although my daughter loves the more “cartoon-y” format of TT). I’m wondering: if you had the choice between Thinkwell and TT back when your kids were transitioning from Singapore, would you/they have chosen Thinkwell over TT? Or are you happy with your/their decision to do TT and then Thinkwell? Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions!
We were very, very happy with Teaching Textbooks. We are really glad we used them. If we had to do it over again, we would do it exactly the same way–Teaching Textbooks until pre-Calculus, then switch to Thinkwell. It would be interesting to know what you decide.