I just read a blog post linked by Luke in the “Other Posts of Note” list over at the Sonlight Blog. The title of the blog post is Stop telling boys to go into STEM and it is just wrong on so many levels I do not even know where to start. First, the idea that there are too many STEM majors is questionable at best. Read this article and this article to start then google it for more articles and lots of research on both sides of this issue. The upshot, though, is that STEM majors make a lot more money whether or not they chose to work in a STEM field. In addition, the author inadvertently makes a very important point when she tells the following anecdote:
Lest you think I’m just being negative toward men, this is actually something a man told me. I had an English professor who was one of the best college teachers I’d had, I think in part because he was very knowledgeable in science. In fact, he’d received a degree in engineering from Stanford but then shuffled around for several years before finally getting a master’s degree in English. During one conversation, I asked him why he got a degree in engineering when he really loved literature.
It is arguable that a STEM degree is better preparation for non-STEM work than many non-STEM degrees. Our daughter Kelly took a similar path by earning a STEM degree (Statistics) all the time knowing she never wanted to work in a STEM job. She has gone on from that Statistics degree to further education in a non-STEM field–several schools offered her funded PhD’s in Marketing. She chose University of Washington. There is no way she would have been accepted into the program after her Bachelors degree following the normal trajectory which typically includes a non-STEM BS, some relevant work and an MBA in Marketing. That she gets the Math and can “do” big data got her in the door.
I guess the issue centers more on the fact that liberal arts degrees are not highly valued in the work place. There is absolutely more academic and intellectual rigor required to earn a STEM degree than a typical liberal arts degree. It has been argued that many hiring managers view many liberal arts degrees as similar to having no degree at all. See here. My argument is not that non-STEM work is not valuable, but that there are better ways to prepare for it than getting a non-STEM undergraduate degree. I think the answer is to change the non-STEM degrees so they ARE valuable by adding rigor including more Math, Statistics, and Computer programming. Maybe less people would enter those fields, but that is right in line with Charles Murray’s idea about too many people going to college anyway.
And don’t get me started on pushing people toward anything based on their gender. It is abjectly elitist and sexist to do that. So what if a person’s culture, value system or worldview pushes a woman toward a “feminine” field. It is THEIR culture, value system and worldview, not yours. Why is your idea about what they should do better than theirs? Additionally, the sexes ARE different from each other, even (if not especially) in the way their brains operate. Maybe men ARE inherently better at math (a religious discussion onto itself), but even if it is just a cultural construct, who is anyone else to say what is right for given individuals whatever their sex. Why do the self-appointed academic elites get to chose what is right and, therefore, what gets pushed when it is a decidedly unscientific “right or wrong”, personal choice kind of question.
It is a luxury to be able to do what one loves as anything other than an avocation if it does not put food on the table. If you do something you love and it does not pay the rent, someone else has to pick up the tab. If that someone is a spouse, an ancestor who gave you a big inheritance or some other benefactor, good for you. The sad part of all this is that it is off “we the people” who end up paying via ill-advised uses of our tax monies. If such a luxury is not immediately available, it is probably a pretty good idea to a get a job that pays well enough to eat, then work your way into the vocation you love. A STEM degree is not a bad way to do that. The probability that you will make enough money for following your dream is much higher if you start with a STEM degree whether you end up deciding to work in a STEM field after that or not.
Hmm… I didn’t see the part where she suggested that there are too many STEM majors.
I do like your point that more students should be encouraged to gain STEM skills — and, perhaps, even degrees in STEM — even if that is not where they are ultimately headed. But, again, her focus is on pushing people into STEM fields … not STEM studies. And I’m not sure what the “typical” student’s experience would be, but I’ve had three of “my kids” go into Engineering at a local school. All three of those brilliant girls had such terrible experiences in the program, they all switched to do something else. So there are at least some schools/teachers that need to shape up.
I failed to follow your point in the second to last paragraph on pushing people toward things based on gender. You start by saying, “Don’t do that!” (and I agree) But then the rest of it seems to be about who should be allowed to push what. I thought we agreed at the outset that nobody should be pushing people based on gender … plus, I really like Dr. Sax’s work on how misunderstandings of gender lead us believe certain things about the genders.
As for your conclusion, I think it’s spot on. If you’re not sure what to do, feel free to get a STEM degree so you’ll be better prepared for whatever you may want to in the future. Great point and definitely a solid addition to the original post.
~Luke
Thanks for this Luke. The thing to which I object with respect to the second paragraph is this:
The idea that “there is nothing wrong with these efforts” to push women away from feminine careers and toward STEM fields. You might have picked up that I am all for women going into STEM fields. The thing to which I object is that the academy, government, etc. feel like it is within their purview to spend public monies to encourage certain classes of people to go a specific direction. It is the who is pushing to which I object, not the what is being pushed. I believe there IS something wrong with these efforts. With a STEM daughter in the family, we had to suffer through a lot of that nonsense and the same people who were pushing STEM on our daughter were openly derisive when she decided to go on to a non-STEM PhD, even many of her professors.
Luke, Sorry if I was a little harsh. This is a little bit of a pet peeve because we have gotten hammered with it so much. I really do appreciate your “Other Posts of Note”–it is profoundly better than my (post)-feedly list. I did not mean to take it out on you!
Thanks, Ken! I think I see, now, what was peeving you (and I’ve got plenty of my own pet peeves [smile]). And I can appreciate how frustrating it would be to have taxes going to pushing people — in this case, girls — into specific fields. That makes perfect sense, especially in the context of our discussion of “let’s not have anybody push anyone into anything based on gender.” …reminds me of Walsh’s post on Affirmative Action: Discrimination is a bad idea, even if you’re doing it for “good” reasons.
…of course, you and I have chatted about Walsh here, too [smile]. So I’m certainly not endorsing his approach.
Thanks for fleshing this out for me a bit more. That was helpful!
~Luke